So on one hand in same post you agree that riots were political but on other hand you are saying Sikhs were killed for their practices? You talk or rational thinking?
“Funny. Will you name the EVOLVED version of your texts ? Gold if kept for ages, remains gold. So is with truth. Truth never needs refinement.”
Dude….This is known fact. That is why Hindus have so many beliefs. On day one of so called religion of ‘Hinduism” did not have so many different beliefs. Some people held on to old stuff, but new stuff came on. This why we have so many shastras, puranas, and what not.
Geeta is considered the official book of Hindus today. Why don’t you find irrational beliefs in Geeta?
Like I told you, I have been to gurudhwara many times. I have heard your kirtan, ardas, path and all. You have your own religion no doubt but much of what I have heard is same man between our religions.
“Never said or meant that entire Hinduism is irrational. My contention is that MOST of what is practiced THESE days is irrational.”
No one has denied that to you. As far as I am concerned in our ancient books there is mention of kalyug(I don’t know if you know that but you can google that if you don’t). I call today’s Hinduism in its kalyug and it is in its darkest stage. What do you expect when stupid RSS and bajrang dal etc hijack our religion?
Our religion has always been about dharam and karam. Entire geeta is dedicated to that. Geeta is considered a summary of Upanisad and vedenta. Read that if you get chance, as far as I know Sikhism I know you will not disagree with that. Let me tell you this. Vedas are the parent books of Hindus. There are 4 vedas and Vedas are divided in to 4 parts. The first part is samhita – hymms to praise the lord. The second part is Brahmanas – these are rituals and prayers. Aranyakas – worship and meditation and last part is called Upanisad or Vedenta(End of Vedas). – These are the philosophical teachings of Hinduism and really summary of first 3 parts. Geeta and Geeta is further summary of Upanisads/vedenta and this is what Hindus are suppose to believe.
I am very sorry that instead of the last two parts Hindus today believe in first 2 which is 1000-1500 BC old and in reality I believe it is even older. So once again I ask you, do you have any solution? Because I agree with you but I do not know how to change that? Heck you have actually mentioned less irrational practices of Hinduism. lost Hindus have actually created temples for Amitabh and Rajnikant. But thre is nothing I can do.
“SOME BUDDISHTS were killed, SOME SIKHS were killed. SOME JAINS were killed, SOME shudras were exploited, SOME christians were killed. Still we are the GREATEST. Super Power, most humane and exemplary in giving religious freedomd!!!!!!”
Yes we are if you compare us to any other part of the world. But let’s not compare it to other parts of world. Let’s keep discussion to India only. How many people were killed and let me ask you, if there was Khalistan, would there never be a case where non-Sikhs will not be killed? Come on you are starting to put standards that is not humanly possible. There will always be some idiot but overall, we have been very tolerant society to different beliefs and best example of that is rise of Sikhism. Aside from those hill kings that aligned themselves with Mughals, tell me how many Hindus opposed the rise of Sikhism? In fact, normal and average Hindus joined Sikhs in their belief and temples. Tell me that is not true, that is true even today mister.
“Words are not to be trusted, action ought to be. Sikhs so far have never killed anyone innocent. Not even Muslims who massacred Sikhs beyond imaginations.”
I agree with you, this is true. I was not talking about Sikhs. I was only pointing at you, while you are Sikh you keep talking about irrational beliefs and I keep agreeing with you but you still keep going on and on. What else am I suppose to say?
“I never denied that 1984 was a political pogrom (don’t call it riot), meant to win the favor of IRRATIONAL and blind populace of Indian state. And this plan delivered. Congress won the elections just after 1984 with the historical majority. (Don’t forget it happened just few years (4-5) after congress was on the verge of extinction from Indian political landscape.”
Dude…Hindus see the games of govt and congress also. Why do you think AAP won in delhi? Why? Because everyone is tired of these politicians. And yes, it was to win over populace but the majority of polulace was not irrational but victim of false information and the false information prevailed because there was only one channel and one radio channel, both owned by govt and at that time congress was in power in govt. There were many news papers which also followed the govt and the ones who did nto disappear in thin air. I hope you know that.
So stop blaming the irrational practices of Hindus and making that connection with what happened. It has nothing to do with irrational practices of Hinduism. It wa all govt controlled. You have yet to tell us that while you make that connection and blame all evils in India on Hindus and their irrational practices, even the ones orchestrated by govt on hindu religion. What is making Muslims and Sikhs riot in south Asia? Tell me. Now where are your references and evidence that you love so much? Why are you shying away from answering that when you are so bold on blaming Hinduism for all evils in India?
The problem started from power struggle between akalis and congress which in turn started taking sides on nirankaris and Sikhs(and as far as we are concerned nirankaris are also Punjabis and it is a issue between you Sikhs and nirankaris and we have nothing to do with it). Bhindranwale which was congress guy initially become angry with politics and became the angry young man…..and according to you he did nothing wrong in his life. Man that hides inside your most sacred building with weapons did nothing wrong. Govt was 100% wrong from day one no doubt but man that hides inside your most sacred temple with weapons on one of the most sacred days of your religion did nothing wrong. From his speeches you can easily make out that he considered hindus as weak and non-martial race or something but he did nothing wrong. but Bhindranwale’s anger was valid and in a way I have respect for him up to a point but I am sorry his actions say he was definitely not a sant, a person who considers another man inferior(which goes against Sikh religion). Person who hides inside a temple like a coward. He kills nirankaris or praises other people who kills nirankaris who are blamed of burning your sacred text of which there is no reference given by you and I don’t see anything in google.(Maybe a man like you who loves references can provide a reference and evidence of nirankaris burning GGS?). I am sorry this man was no sant. Again, govt was 100% wrong but Bhindranwale was not 100% right. You will never be able to convince me of that.
Whatever man…You sure are very rational. I am giving up on you and this will be my last post. I wish you could see some truth yourself. I see the truth and I accepted many times but you have yet to see one truth and have accepted nothing. So I agree, you are rational and you could never be wrong. You are always right. Be happy and no worries from my side. No hard feelings. Peace!]]>
This is what has been to Sikhs by contemporary rulers since ages. And mind it, the only Sikh emperor who has existed in last 500 years, Maharaja Ranjit Singh, is known for giving equal rights to all the religions. Research it or i will happily give many links.
2. “ Hindus texts have evolved, they are not like GGS that it can never be refined. All texts are refined and evolve.”
Funny. Will you name the EVOLVED version of your texts ? Gold if kept for ages, remains gold. So is with truth. Truth never needs refinement.
3. “Ok, I guess you are saying entire Hinduism is irrational.”
Never said or meant that entire Hinduism is irrational. My contention is that MOST of what is practiced THESE days is irrational.
4. “Ok, some Jains were also killed, by a Buddhist king but they were killed. “
Not just by a Buddhist King. The case of Buddhist King (Ashoka) is different.
SOME BUDDISHTS were killed, SOME SIKHS were killed. SOME JAINS were killed, SOME shudras were exploited, SOME christians were killed. Still we are the GREATEST. Super Power, most humane and exemplary in giving religious freedomd!!!!!!
And you call these big numbers ‘SOME’. great.
5. “kill all Hindus, go ahead pick up your sword and everything that does not set according to your belief of Sikhism”
Words are not to be trusted, action ought to be. Sikhs so far have never killed anyone innocent. Not even Muslims who massacred Sikhs beyond imaginations.
6. “Can you admit that he said they will kill nirankaris and he would weight the killer of some nirankari in gold? “
Not Nirankaris!!!!!! Yes One Nirankari. And he was the one who ordered gun fire on peacefully protesting Sikhs. Don’t manipulate.
7. “ This debate started with one thing; that Hindus have not harmed you before or aftr 1984 and even during 1984 it was political riot”
I never denied that 1984 was a political pogrom (don’t call it riot), meant to win the favor of IRRATIONAL and blind populace of Indian state. And this plan delivered. Congress won the elections just after 1984 with the historical majority. (Don’t forget it happened just few years (4-5) after congress was on the verge of extinction from Indian political landscape.]]>
Yes, I said crept in because spiritual progress is gone otherwise if spiritual gurus were still around and saw people doing total blind practice they would’ve corrected that in society and texts if necessary. Hindus texts have evolved, they are not like GGS that it can never be refined. All texts are refined and evolve.
“Some irrationality? Whatever you found above is “Some Irrationality””
Ok, I guess you are saying entire Hinduism is irrational. If you are not saying that and some parts of Hinduism is irrational, what else but “SOME” should I say? Again, I don’t know what to say to you anymore about your problems with Hinduism. I think you should just go ahead and kill all Hindus, go ahead pick up your sword and everything that does not set according to your belief of Sikhism, you should destroy. That is all I can say to you about it.
Regarding Buddhism and Jainism: Ok, I admit, some abuse and killing of Buddhism was done by Hindus but most of the reason for decline of Buddhism was social reasons and that article says that. Buddhists never made social entrance and hence without social fabric they disappeared. Ok, some Jains were also killed, by a Buddhist king but they were killed.
Regarding Bhindranwale; ok fine, Joshi is Hindu so we cant believe him. Can you admit that he said they will kill nirankaris and he would weight the killer of some nirankari in gold?
This debate started with one thing; that Hindus have not harmed you before or aftr 1984 and even during 1984 it was political riot. You have not admitted anything in your entire debate/argument with me. Whoever in world has time to read it, will read it and know who has been more truthful in this debate. Good bye, best of luck and no hard feeling but only disappointment that I thought you were intellectual!]]>
Good going !!…you at last have understood what we call references…stay in for some more time…we will teach you how to debate..
You have quoted me…but only half the sentence…you are a manuplator…(Now my belief has got stronger that we can’t expect anything from people who call their God a Challiya (trickster)…
My full statement was “And truth is that irrational practices (like Rass Leela/ Linga Puja/ idol worship) give birth to irrationality in human beings which in turn result in evil instances like riots, scandals. Now this irrationality could be in any religion, be it sikh, hindu, jain, muslim, christians, jews, gnostics, Bodhis or others…On our part, the best we can do is to sit CALMLY in silence and think honestly on our blind faiths so that we, as a human race, may progress from being animals to being truly godly beings.”
Did you read it….I clearly mentioned ANY Religion and Named all the religions Including SIkhism…
2. “Now it is up to you to prove that it is these instances that cause riots and scandals then you need to prove what is causing Muslims and SIkhs to riot?”
Laughable…you don’t have time ( or mind) to read things..I have explained it….Just search following phrase in inverted commas (just ctrl S)…
”Sir I clearly stated at more than one places that irrationality in any religion is harmful. And yes irrationality gives birth to riots and scandals. Let me give an example. Rational Sant Kabir says”
You can also search keyword “Crash” i explained that irrationality gives rise to riots (crowd psychology) and stock crashes.
You seem to suffer from Short Memory (the one like Gajni, you saw it?)
3. “Here it is from Sikh times and from Sikh poster himself and if you google many Sikhs themselves are saying that I don’t agree with sant ji saying of killing hindus.”
Ah!!! This Mr Chand Joshi is the most (and the only) sought references when it comes to prove Sant Bhindrawalan a terrorist.
Still good….you got to know what i was asking for ..reference….Now i will give you one. Here is it.
And unlike you, i will give you the phrase that you need to search so as to save your time (and may be Mind)…Keyword is “ Dr. Ranbir Singh (Sandhu), Professor Emeritus at Ohio State University”….Now she this man has proven credibility unlike Mr Chand Joshi. And i will give more keyword so that you may directly get to what i want you to know…Phrase to search is “The Bhindranwale that emerges from these speeches bears no resemblance to the terrorist ogre he has been made out to be”……
And you didn’t answer why no Hindu left Amritsar even when you so called Terroritst with Guns and Grenades was sitting in their vicinity???
See, I have no objection to change my opinions if you are able to convince me…..but i expect same sort genuine-ity from you too.
4. “I am not aware of particular instance of pouring melted metal in shudra’s ears but “
Here we go “http://searchlight-is-on.blogspot.in/2013/08/assault-on-shudras.html”
This reference may or may not be authentic but you have power of internet so you can find more. If you can’t i will certainly help you
5. “ Please provide link of your claim that Bodhis and Jains were massacred.”
You don’t need to ask for it again. Here it is “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_Buddhism_in_India”
For Jains “http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_massacre”
Jains were also massacred by Ashoka. I did not mention that as Ashoka was Budhist ( though he ought to be mentioned as we are discussing religious freedom in India not any religion in particular).
6. “You totally misunderstand quotes in your own religion and holding that in your hand you start pointing fingers at others”
Which quotes are you referring here to? I think i know and i have proved my point too. Search following phrase
“Ram Katha which Guru believes in has no relevance with Ram of your stories”….
7. “They practice for very reason you don’t understand. I explained in last post and I will not waste my time again.”
Where did you explain. Irrationality is why they practice. They practice because they are blind. Intellectually handicapped they are. See how it is
I so far have been quite defensive (just answering and clarifying your doubts). I have few questions which i need answer from you. PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS AND don’t feel that is my hatred towards you and your religion. Just my curiosity.
a. Everyone (you said only few following irrational practices) of you, goes to so many temples all around India and pours milk (instead of drinking themselves) on a statue of Lingam (Human Pen*s) placed in Y*ni (Human Vag*na). And not only this, you have found one ICE lingam in Amarnath.
b. You make millions of statues of half human/half elephant god ganesha every year. And throw those statues in sea in a period of few days. This practice which is only a century (at most) olld is a cause of big concern for environmentalists.
c. Your saints like Asaram (and believe me there are thousands other), on the name of Raas Leela (you call it Bhakti), have been raping hundreds of girls for so many years. They are so powerful that even state itself fears to capture them.
d. You said things like snake worship are rare. And what about Cow ? What about mouse (there is one of most prominent temples of yours where you worship mouses).
e. Raam Leela is one of the most important events for you. And don’t deny that bollywood (vulgar) dance performance is one of the biggest attractions of these leelas that too all over India.
f. Your Jagratas? Why you play bollywood songs on Jagratas. This practice is prevalent everywhere in India.
g. What is Raas Leela? Tell me? Explain it?
f. Why your God Krishna used to take pleasure in stealing the clothes of girls who used to bathe in rivers. And even if he did, why are you so happy telling those stories?
g. And your irrationality and shamelessness is not limited to India. Some day take some time to read what Mr Robert Cialdini (respected name in human psychology) has to say about Hare Krishna People in the US.
h. How do you believe stories like Ganesha was born of the sweat and dirt of Shiva’s body. Majority of populace trust these and watch with utmost respect these TV soaps on almost every channel.
i. And have you read Mahabharta in detail? Search following phrase “The Bheel Mahabharata and Tale of Draupadi”
j. Why things like caste system (still prevalent in most of India) are found in your religious texts.
k. How women have been treated in your religiou texts?
8. “ some irrationality has crept in and because of lack of that growth it is hard to change it..”
Some irrationality? Whatever you found above is “Some Irrationality”
Crept In??? Most of it is written in your RELIGIOUS TEXTS.
9. “So go ahead Mr. Give some solutions.”
No. I won’t give any. In fact I won’t even reply your posts. You need to re-read the entire text here. You are asking same things again and again.]]>
Are you saying, you did not say the below in your post on jan 8 2014 at 5:10 AM?
“And truth is that irrational practices (like Rass Leela/ Linga Puja/ idol worship) give birth to irrationality in human beings which in turn result in evil instances like riots, scandals. ”
You are straightly saying that these practices of Hinduism are giving birth to scandals and riots. Which you know very well is not true. I proved it to you with examples of Pakistan and Sikhs riots that it is not true. So you are obviously blaming Hinduism up to some point for riots that has affected your community. Now it is up to you to prove that it is these instances that cause riots and scandals then you need to prove what is causing Muslims and SIkhs to riot?
This kind of stuff angers me Jatinder. I clearly told you and My reply to you also noted the same thing that I just typed. Yet you keep telling me that I am not giving you any links or evidence. It seems this debate would not go on for too long. I am honest person and I have no problem accepting whatever the truth is but I do have problem with this kind of debate where you wrongly just put blame on other party.
“Please explain it.”
Dude….Just let it go now. I posted that right after I was talking about Bhindranwale and so I was clearly saying that none of your gurus out of anger or anything said anything about killing based on religion/sect/race/caste or anything. but Bhindranwale did.
“Yes because you know you won’t find any references.”
What did you want people o have iphones back then to make a video and post it for you? Here it is from Sikh times and from Sikh poster himself and if you google many Sikhs themselves are saying that I don’t agree with sant ji saying of killing hindus.
“Sir, “ I think” is the attitude that we question in a debate. Debates are meant to surface truths.”
Read the link above…
“Threatening innocent creatures of Almighty is also against Moksha, dear sir.”
So, saying that this debate is over is a threat? I don’t understand you….you talk of highest morals et el but you seem to be pretty basic in your understanding and comprehension or you are intentionally lying or saying things to make me look wrong.
“Forever!!!! Sir a country where you pour melted lead metal into the ears of shudras who dared to listen to and read vedas, where lacs of Bodhis were massacred, Jains were massacred. Recently a christian missionary was burnt alive. ”
Ok, I am not aware of particular instance of pouring melted metal in shudra’s ears but yes Shundras were treated very badly. Please provide link of your claim that Bodhis and Jains were massacred. Yes a Christian missionary was massacred and the killers got justice. But over all, unless you provide links that Bodhis and Jains were massacred, this does not prove that religious freedom did not exist in India.
“So that is what we call fanaticism at its best. Let the anger come out of you”
Yes, I re-iterate again. You Sikhs are becoming like Muslims. You totally misunderstand quotes in your own religion and holding that in your hand you start pointing fingers at others. Just like you have done. Where is lie or fanaticism in that?
“Sir why do they practice it. So it means difference in Kehni and Kathni?”
NO…They practice for very reason you don’t understand. I explained in last post and I will not waste my time again. You need to understand Hinduism and heck, even your own religion before you start making assessment and claims of reason and analysis.
“Never deny that. People like Vivekananda, Vidyasagar were Hindus. Education really helps people come out of dark and that truly is happening. But still there are miles and miles to go.”
So then what is your problem? NOT even Hindus will say that there are no problems in Hinduism. No one is claiming it to be perfect. There sure is irrationality in Hinduism. But at same time we have lots of greatness too. So what really is your problem? They should all subscribe to what you think is true? Or should Hindus go out and ban Hindus practices that are irrational. In fact, no democratic court in world will ban that unless those beliefs are causing harm to anyone else. I will be first to agree, in last 100-200 years the growth of Hindu religion has stopped. Spirituality has stopped otherwise it evolved for thousands of years. So yes, some irrationality has crept in and because of lack of that growth it is hard to change it. But even with that, go ahead and give one solution that is democratically correct? Just one solution please. And mind you…don’t give solutions of psychological, emotional, social, physical abuse to stop them from believing in that or converting them to any other belief because with that India will become like Pakistan and I will be the first to oppose that. So go ahead Mr. Give some solutions.]]>
Sir you are on track. This is the reason why my Guru abstains me to restrict God in Stones or idols (these day Photographs) as the Nirankar God is everywhere. But He can be found from within yourself. And that is the importance of Human Life. Though God is present in Animals (and stones) but only human beings, with the words (wisdom) of true Guru, can feel and find Him.]]>
Good going, soon you will have a new birth (new vision and thoughts).
1.”Listen man, you don’t know how to debat”
Sir, you have used words like “obvious”, “known fact” at many places. I am debating keeping my feet on ground. You are flying in ambiguity with words as above.
2. “I gave you that in last post of mine”
Where? Any links. Your mere words can’t be reference. Reference is something from authenticated sources. I would even trust the biased Indian Media references in that regard.
3. “ Don’t make me a liar. “
Where did you give reference? It is you who is proving himself a liar, not anybody else?
4. “I will not keep too much ego, ego is against growth and moksha”
Sir you realized it too late. I have addressed you with utmost respect. But i am happy now you are talking of ‘Growth’ and ‘Moksha’, the rather than justifying idols/snakes/lingam etc.
5. “He clearly said “He will kill 5000 hindus and hour”
CLEARLY said???? Did you listen him saying? Or reported in any media?
Sir please now don’t say it is “OBVIOUS” or “KNOWN FACT”. It was obvious few centuries ago that Earth is flat and Galileo was imprisoned and killed for opposing this OBVIOUS fact. Provide some solid proof. I think you need to research on Propaganda theories that States use to engineer the masses so as to make them hate particular personalities/religions/societies.
6. “ I am not even going to search that anymore”
Yes because you know you won’t find any references.
7. “None, and I mean NONE of your gurus said anything about any group or killing them like that”
Please explain it.
8. “Who am I talking to? a 16 year old kid? Come one dude…I was just making a reference towards hatred”
Sir what is this? If you are free to chose any references then the purpose of making references is vanished. References are made to anchor your thoughts to some relevant (or similar) situation.
Okay, if i am explaining love for God, can make reference to a bollywood masala movie?
9. “I still think he was hateful and not worthy of title, “Sant”“
Sir, “ I think” is the attitude that we question in a debate. Debates are meant to surface truths. If you have to express your thoughts, blogging or other one way communication platforms would be better.
Here in a debate, you have to prove your point, providing some authenticated sources. And if you can’t then you have to admit it. Rigidness is not the way as you said ego is enemy of Moksha.
10. “If anything this would’ve been against my religion. Why would that be the most sensitive topic? “
Read carefully what you have written. It is a sensitive issue.
11. “please don’t misquote me or this debate is over”
Threatening innocent creatures of Almighty is also against Moksha, dear sir.
12. “That is the way of this selfish world, by making others look bad and grow, I do not play that game”
Sir self-admiration could be a barrier to Moksha. The path to moksha is to believe
“Hum Nahi Change (good) , Bura Nahi Koye”
That is I am not good and others are not evil.
13. “The point here is yes, they are irrational. But they aren’t causing any harm to you or me or anyone. Does irrational practices cause riots and scams? No, if that was the case Sikhs would’ve never rioted or scammed, but Sikhs have rioted and There are Sikh scamsters too.”
Sir i you had read my earlier post, i have replied to this argument of yours in a big detail. If you still want, tell me, i will explain it.
See on our journey as humans we are moving from being Animals (Irrational) to Godly (Rational). That is from being in a jungle ( characterized by fear, force, riots, killings) to being in an utopian world.
Okay no lectures. Sir, irrationality is very very important trait of Crowd or Herd psychology. And this psychology causes everything from riots to stock market crashes and financial scams. Just one example.
14. “Now you are talking garbage and I am almost losing my hope in this debate”
Sir repeating my words on irrationality was due to mis-communication from my side. But certainly it was not Garbage.
And why are you losing hope? Try giving some fact/figures.
15 “ I am not comparing US and India on everything except that freedom of religion. That has existed in India forever”
Forever!!!! Sir a country where you pour melted lead metal into the ears of shudras who dared to listen to and read vedas, where lacs of Bodhis were massacred, Jains were massacred. Recently a christian missionary was burnt alive.
Sir, is this what we call Freedom of Religion. It never existed, not even in Western World (except modern day America.
I have not counted Sikh genocide.
Forever. How can you forget what Aurangzeb did to Hindus?
And sir, all i have said is very well quoted in books of indian history itself. Search it. If you don’t find any references, tell me i will definitely provide many unlike you (you haven’t given even a single reference to prove your accusation on Sant Ji)
16. “You Sikhs are becoming like Muslims, read, don’t understand and become fanatics about a single quote”
So that is what we call fanaticism at its best. Let the anger come out of you. I have capacity to absorb it all like Shiva absorbed the poison from Samudra Manthan. This debate is a manthan and see poison inside you is coming out.
Not a single quote. Need more?
Full discussion on idol worship.
Example: “Jo Pathar ko Kehte Dev, Ta Ki Birtha Hove Sev”
One who calls the stone his Dev (God) his bhakti goes wasted.
Sir again i am not speaking without references. You also please find some to prove your points otherwise your frustration will burst beyond imagination.
17. “You do not understand anything about bhakti or worship.”
Sir Sikhism is all about Bhakti Movement. All out Guru Granth Sahib is Bhakti nothing else. Still you are right, i don’t understand it. You know it is deeper than what we can even imagine. Quite deep.
18. “Heck even Hindus will tell you the same about stones.”
Sir why do they practice it. So it means difference in Kehni and Kathni?
19. “ Hinduism believing in idols is only first stage and tru saint/yogi/gyani does not believe in idols”
Sir still stick in first stage. Please move to the second. It is too late, there are too many stages and only few years in hand.
20. “There is also no requirement to believe in Idols, heck you don’t even have to believe in God just like Buddhists. “
Sir, that is difference. On one extreme (you call first stage) you find God in stones and Other extreme (last stage?) , you deny existence of God. Not good? God exists.
“Aad Sach, Jugaad Sach.
Hai Bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach”
God is Truth and Existent from ages and He will be forever.
21. “So yes, this quote exists in Sikhism but it is not saying Don’t believe in gods or idols of Ram or Krishna”
You want to hear what Sikhism does not even believe in King Rama of your stories. Want to hear what Nanak says
“Rove Raam Nikala Bhaya, Sita Lachman Bichad Gaya”
“King Ram cries as he has to leave Ayodhya and now Sita and Lachman have separated from him.” Now how can Ram (if he is all potent God) cry over anything.
Sir the Ram Katha which Guru believes in has no relevance with Ram of your stories. The stone in the quote i mentioned in earlier post was idols of Rama and Krishna.
22. “While Sikhism says this quote, it also says that God resides in everything and everyone. So how about that Mr? Doesn’t that include stone? LOL”
You are truly a genius Sir. And i too like you relish your shrewdness.
If God is everywhere why idols of Durga you revere? Why not idols of Rakhi Sawant?
And i admit i know nothing of what Guru says and pray to give me humility and ability to learn.
22. “Just because Hinduism is old, lot of irrationality has crept in”
Justified Sir. But i just emphasize getting out of irrationality.
23. “In fact, polytheism is only one of the things you can do”
Sorry Sir, not for sikhs. The very first word my Guru says is
“Ek Oankar” That is the one from whom universe originate is ONE and only ONE.
24. “ IN fact, Hindu can be anything but just because all believe in polytheism doesn’t mean that is what Hinduism itself preaches nor does it mean there is anything wrong with it”
Sir, get out of grey shades. “Hindu can be anything” is what i object the most (not Hinduism but this thought of masses.) Sir nobody can tide over the ocean footing on two boats. And you are saying many boats.
25. “Here is a quote from Wikipedia about what Hinduism”
It is good to see that you went to Wikipedia to read about the religion you have been practicing for years. Nice. But get deeper.
26. “Hindusim is no organized religion but belief of centuries of us Indians”
ABSOLUTELY sir. We are coming on track. This is the first time that i am in complete agreement with you that Hinduism is not a religion but “”“”BELIEFS OF CENTURIES”
Now sir, don’t you think that CENTURIES OLD BELIEFS need to be challenged? Forget for one moment any religion and animosity and think on it.
27 “hat is why Hindu never has problem praying in Gurudhwara or jain temple or Buddhist temple or church, they wont have any issues going to mosque either”
Sir this is the problem that they don’t have problem praying anywhere. See my Guru says that the way to feel True Lord is to Understand the Word (Shabad or wisdom) of Guru (Written in Guru Granth Sahib), not to pray blindly anywhere, gurdwara or mosque. Few rose above normality to understand the fact and that is why there are few who truly are Sikh (a learner from words of Guru). Ones you see in Turbans with Full beards are those who just think but are not Sikh. Kabir didn’t had a full beard or a turban!!! And if you want reference, i will definitely provide it from Guru Granth Shaib itself.
28. “From where I look at, that is respectable. If you find disrespect in that I am sorry,”
Sir it is not about respect or disrespect. Not about winning or losing debate. It is only about surfacing Truth.
29. “No one is forcing Hindus to go to any of the non-hindu places of worship”
Sir this is what i am saying, there are no PLACES or IDOLS of worship. There is nothing like Worshiping God. It is about grasping the wisdom. I never asked anything about your vedas. Because i believe they could be a source of some sort of wisdom (i never read any).
30. “ if that means we have to live with some irrationality, then I guess it is OK”
Sir it is okay on their part as they are in dark but not on your as you know it is irrational. Your role is to tell them what is right.
31. “There will never be ideal and utopian”
There will be an utopian world or not, we don’t have right to give our verdict on it. It is like saying i accept that i can’t score 100 so i am targeting for 80. But sir this way you will end up just 60. So you lost 40.
32. “ At least some its own irrationality Hindus are truly free”
Never deny that. People like Vivekananda, Vidyasagar were Hindus. Education really helps people come out of dark and that truly is happening. But still there are miles and miles to go.
As “Vidya Vichari, Ta Paropkari”
That is, the true words of Guru, if pondered upon, only then can be of any good to self and society. See without pondering upon (manthan), even the words of Guru can’t liberate us from the chains of our past animal instincts.]]>
Sorry there is no edit button but I would like to add one more thing to this explanation. I said, “some irrationality has been there and that is OK”, does not mean I am saying that I am OK to live with irrationality. What I am saying is that no matter what you do, if you want freedom there will always be some irrationality and it can never stop. There will never be ideal and utopian world whether you have organized religion or religion like Hinduism. At least some its own irrationality Hindus are truly free. About this irrationality though…things are changing…more education is forcing people to evaluate themselves and educated folks can discrimate between right and wrong themselves and they are themselves keeping goods and throwing out bads. That is truly free souls.]]>
Why don’t you Wikipedia for once and you will see…
Oh and no, I am not taking that quote away from you. Please don’t let anything I say hurt your pride. I don’t mean to say anything about that particular quote. What I was saying was about transcendental knowledge is great and that man is truly free is straight out of gnana yoga.]]>
I wanted to clarify this quote so you don’t misquote me. I meant to say that from where I look at, the fact that Hindus can visit any place of worship and actually pray with heart actually means true religious freedom. No one is forcing Hindus to go to any of the non-hindu places of worship so they don’t go there to hate the god fo different religions. They are going there with true heart just like they would go to Hindu temple. That is respectable and I like that. Now Hindus like me can start to take away snake worship which is VERY small part of Hinduism but when you start suppressing anything and masses start believing in that supression, where do you stop? Then how do you tell the masses that ok, we either forced ortaught them that irrationality is wrong, snake worship is wrong then how do you tell the masses that going to non-hindu place of worship is right? No, Hindu like me would like to see Hindus the way they are, we should be able to go to any place of worship and pray our hearts out and if that means we have to live with some irrationality, then I guess it is OK. AND THAT IS WHAT I MEANT BY, WHEN YOU LET HUMANS GO FREE GREAT THINGS HAPPEN BUT IT IS GAURANTEED THAT SOME IRRATIONALITY WILL ALSO BE THERE. Please also respect some of our goods and stop pointing at only our bads without understanding.
Neighter do you understand the quote about stones you posted nor do you understand Hinduism at all.]]>